“I don’t mind people knowing what kind of guy I am” – Laks Ranson
Above: My brother Laks seen walking his cult leader. Chris Butler needs little walks around the block like any sick puppy would.
Below: a few more shots of the cult leader being given his walkies around his Lanikai neighborhood escorted by some cult goon brandishing a rather intimidating little can of pepper spray, This toenail chomping tough guy is signaling to any would be aggressors that if they approach holy Chris, they will be dressed like a spicy salad. I believe this is also my brother. It is definitely him in the first picture above.
Laks Ranson, a.k.a. Sudama Peter Ranson my baby brother was brainwashed since birth to serve and obey cult leader Chris Butler Siddhaswarupananda.
Me and Laks right before being shipped off to a cult boarding school in the Philippines 1993. Laks Ranson never returned to our family, kept under the care of non family cult members from then on, heavily indoctrinated.
Me and Laks in Kailua 2003. This was the last time I ever saw my little brother. Chris Butler destroyed my family.
Laks has risen through the cult ranks to become Chris Butler’s most trusted and enslaved cult member. My brother Laks attended Allan “Acharya Das” Tibby’s Philippines based cult boarding school and indoctrination center from age 12 and he never returned to our family, Chris Butler kept Laks away from me because my influence would undo this relentless mind control Chris Butler has bombarded my little brother with since birth.
Below is a transcript of a week long conversation between Laks and myself on Facebook Messenger. Laks does not respond to any messages and I have no other contact for him. Laks called me once on the phone in 2012 and then once on messenger about 6 months ago. Laks was ordered to talk to me essentially giving me one final chance to apologize and remove all my cult info from the web.
These are the terms my family has set before me since 2006, no communication unless I submit fully to this request. I could not understand why they would even ask me this again, but now I realize it was my last chance before Chris Butler started co-ordinating cult members to legally intimidate me through completely frivolous lawsuits, always filed in family courts in jurisdictions that I never travel to or live in.
First they sent cult prince Siddha Bellord a.k.a. Richard V. Bellord to try to get me through a Hawaii court, then Chris Butler had all my New Zealand cult member friends and family jump in together on a truly ridiculous case in some remote New Zealand family court.
I hope to publish more of this legal garbage at a later date, but without further ado, My conversation with my bainwashed baby brother:
L = Laks
Laks: The reason I stopped talking to you was not because of some order from someone else like you claim. If you call mom and dad pathetic and brain washed cult members, if that is really what you think of them, I don’t know why you would think I would want anything to do with you. If you take things that are personal and important to someone and ridicule and mock them publicly i don’t know what kind of relationship you expect to have. If you don’t approve of how someone lives their life, instead of just accepting your differences and moving on you attack them for it online. How can you have a relationship without trust? How can I trust you if i know that any aspect of my life that does not meet your approval you will be sure to trash it online publicly.
Rama: How come you talked to me on the phone that one time two years ago, then completely fuckin ignored all my e-mails. All I was trying to do was be cool, and I hadn’t posted online in years.
You’re only talking to me now because you guys are actually scared I’m having a real effect in Kailua.
And cut the shit man, you, mum and Dad are and were brainwashed. This shit is totally a cult. Maybe if you guys were able to continue talking to me since 2006 I wouldn’t be so pissed and shit wouldn’t be so fucked up now.
Tell Chris he brought all this on himself.
I’m loving it dude, I hope you guys are happy.
R: How many non disclosure agreements have you signed? Jaya Sri Krishna!
All built on drug trafficking proceeds dude, we were flown around the world on that shit.
“Paramahamsa Das is a big time businessman who makes all the money for Srila Prabhupada”
That’s what mum and dad used to tell us in the 80’s in Whangamata
What a joke man.
All you guys do is make money for Chris and give money to Chris, that’s such a scam, dumb fucks.
Laks: When we talked on the phone we never really addressed all the stuff you had said about us. I wasn’t comfortable letting you into my life knowing that at anytime you might post crap about me or my family online. I should have relayed that to you at the time but you had never shown any remorse for what you had said or done.
R: Neither have you fucker, I shoulda been at the funeral.
R: You are such a look man, you got no context for anything outside the cult. You have no idea how people think and react outside all you guys who worship Chris Butler.
You got no clue how ridiculous you all are.
R: Kook! I meant to say.
L: How could I invite you to the funeral if you definitely would have gone online and talked shit about it? do you think Dad would have wanted chanting at his funeral? Yes. Would you have gone and line and talked shit about that if you were there and there was chanting? Yes you would have. I remember reading posts where you were ridiculing Prahlad’s wedding because there was chanting there. i’m sure you would have done the same to Dad’s funeral.
R: You guys fucked up, now you pay.
L: One other thing, accusing Mum of child abuse is just insane. That was totally uncool.
R: I know, it’s uncool that she didn’t give me an inhaler, she abused me.
L: Absolutely not true and you know it.
L: you just happend to remember this when you are 35 years old
R: Dude I talked to Bianca about it, she was well aware that I was very sick and not allowed my inhaler. Nana and Grandad know too, because I was bed ridden for 3 days at a time when I’d have Asthma attacks. I couldn’t move for 3 days. This was all when I was 3 or 4 so you were 1 or 2
R: It lasted a year maybe. One hit of inhaler completely takes my asthma away, but I wasn’t allowed to use drugs on Srila Prabhupada’s orders.
I remember the first time I was given oxygen in the doctors in Whangamata. It was a long time after I had been suffering asthma attacks, but I was never taken until I almost died.
Mum did confront me like I describe when we finally got an inhaler, and she got really intense and angry with me, telling me I can’t take drugs because it would be offensive to Krishna and Srila Prabhupada said so.
R: You were super young though Laks, your earliest memories I woulda been using the inhaler already.
L: How can you know what was really going on when you are 3 or 4? You can barely remember anything at that age. And your trying to accuse her of child abuse for something that you never brought up once until you were 35 and were not old enough to know what was actually going on? how old was Bianca? She was barely with us when we were kids. You always had an inhaler from my earliest memories. And were told to only use it when you really needed it. And when I looked up instructions for inhaler use even now, they say you should not over use them. It’s a steroid, your not supposed to overuse it.
R: It was all when I first developed asthma.
It’s abuse and Chris Butler was the only reason. His orders.
R: I remember it clear as a bell, mate
L: mum told me she never EVER confronted you like you described above about the inhaler being offensive etc. and I never remember her ever saying anything like that, or comfronting you about anything or me in that way
R: Haley’s comet came through around the same time. I remember seeing that.
L: yeah i remember haley’s comet
L: just seems to me you are mixing it with a lot of the anger you have now. That’s just no how Mum raised us in general
L: If you take an objective look at our childhood. It was pretty cool I think
R: Just one time, the first time I went to use the inhaler after the doctor finally gave it to us.
He was annoyed at mum that I didn’t have one when they put me on the oxygen.
He just told her give it whenever I get Asthma. Then the next time I got it, she confronted me like I said.
It only happened once. But it burned an impression in me. Abuse is normalized. It’s old shit braddah, but it is in there.
R: Yeah I think it was pretty cool, just a weird group. I’d have nothing to bitch about if you guys hadn’t cut me out cold since 2006
L: But why did you have to go and say all that shit online in 2006?
R: If I was still cool with you guys, but that could never be allowed if I spoke my mind about the group,
L: but your speaking your mind, involvled a lot of ridiculing us and trashing us and what we beleive in.
R: Dude it wasn’t that bad! It’s honest, my experience, my different ideas than I was raised with. Nobody outside the group thinks there is anything wrong with that!
Talk to Leanne and Michael
R: Yeah mate, well it was all shit I endured, not my choice. You guys cannot except criticism at all. It’s fuckin crazy.
R: Dad never breathed a word of the problems to Leanne and Michael. He gave them my number to visit in SF a month before they left, he died and he never had to face what happened with me to them.
They were his best friends, yet he was forbidden to speak about cutting me off.
That’s fucked up, Laks. This is all “cult” stuff, man.
L: You say that “that you are just telling your side of the story” but it seems like you had become real angry with what we beleived in and our spiritual path and it was an anger that you seemed to develop after the fact. And all your postings with laced with that anger.
R: Is that enough to leave your own son and brother for dead over?
R: I’d not turn my back on any of you for any reason. You guys didn’t want me.
R: I wanted you guys to hear me out, and have to accept it, there is nothing you guys could say to me that would cause me to abandon you all
It’s just that you guys abandoned me.
It hurts and it cuts me till the day I die.
But I live with it and wear my scars, as you may have noticed.
L: Dad asked you to apologize, but instead you just dug in even more, posted his email to you online, and trashed us more. It’s not leaving you for dead. like I said above a relationship is based on trust and you broke that trust. All he / we asked is that you apologize for the stuff you said
L: Yu wanted us to hear you out but you never talked to any of us about it. you posted it all online to a bunch of stangers.
R: He said I must remove everything I ever wrote, and also promise never to write a negative thing again.
R: I fuckin talked to mum about it, but she blocks it out one on one. Isn’t bothered. As soon as it is public, it’s a big problem.
L: from like 16 or however old, you were just doing your own thing. It’s not like mum and dad were forcing anything on you. They let you live your life how you wanted
R: But they forced cutting me of, that’s the problem.
The past 10 years is the gnarly shit
R: Funny how dad talked about sending me to school, but after I refused to draw for Chris Butler in 1998 they never breathed a word about helping me out after that.
Never got me an education or a hand in learning art.
I’m sure he told them not to help me after that point.
R: 8 years before I posted on the Internet.
L: Your just speculating about that
R: Ha ha ha well, dad sure was hyping it up a lot, then fuckin nothing after that.
R: Dude seriously bro, why the fuck do you stay in the group?
R: Do you even get to kick it with your wife and kids, or are you on different quarantine?
R: Just chat through the doorway
L: I have a wonderful wife and kids. Kids are learning to surf, kids getting his first skateboard. I am happy and I would like to think I can chose the spiritual path i want to follow with out someone else judging me for it.
R: There’s a big difference than ascribing to Taoism, and running around Kailua like some slave boy for a crazy man.
You can call them both a spiritual path, but you aren’t addressing anything specifically. They are miles apart bro, and you don’t have any context.
You were so engulfed in this shit, you never had a chance to make a different choice.
Relentless hardcore indoctrination is what you got. You were removed from the family at 12 years old to go to Baguio. You were the teacher’s pet, too, I heard.
R: All the shit that was done to me was done to Ant Webb too
L: I am happy with my life and the choices I have made. I would hope you would respect me enough as a person to let me live my own life.
L: Did A talk shit about his family and friends too?
R: He’s a devotee to this day, he was cast out and cut off from his kids.
There are countless families cut off in this group, and it’s all done on the part of the ones in the group. They steal kids away and some parents don’t see them again.
It’s systematic, all Chris Butler’s orders.
R: No A– didn’t, but he was cut off from his kids for taking them to chant with his non Butler crew.
R: And it’s been an ongoing struggle for him to stay in contact with his kids (our childhood friends)
L: Steal kids away from parents? countless cut off families? your just making stuff up. or taking things and twisting them to fit your story
L: (our childhood friends) are adults. if they want to contact him they can.
L: Kids and parents with strained relationships happens all over the world
R: With a strangely higher frequency in your little cult. Hmmmmmmmm
L: But its not a higher frequency
R: You guys actually don’t know a thing on the inside. Nothing is shared, nothing is discussed. It’s all highly compartmentalized.
L: anyway. We’re just arguing at this point, I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere.
R: Hells yeah foo, it’s been cool.
Did you watch the World Cup?
How fuckin epic was that
I’m watching some super rugby shit. So many teams now.
L: Yep. Pretty solid.
Maybe when you’re done with all your online crap we can try and work this shit out. I think you owe Mum a major apology.
R: All right, cool. I’ll let you guys know
Can we meet halfway? Allow me a little online crap?
Just some light ribbing of Siddhaswarupananda.
Did you check out that picture I drew, the “tore up” one?
It’s full size at that link, you can zoom in all sick.
L: Chris Butler / Siddhaswarupanada is our spiritual master and is a very important part of our life. I don’t see what happiness you get from trashing that. I don’t appreciate it.
R: I’m at this gas station, they stock Wai Lana chips!
But you don’t think that picture is funny at all?
L: I don’t think anyone who takes their spiritual life seriously would want to hang out with people that have so much anger and hate for their, scriptures, their spiritual teachers etc.
It says in scripture that hearing offenses to God and his devotee is very damaging to your spiritual life. If it gives you some kind of joy doing what you’re doing then you are free to do so. But I think you will find you will be much happier and have less anxiety in your life if you just focus on living your life.
L: Ok. i’m going to bed.
R: Alright, Laks, goodnight bro.
L: Goodnight Rama
R: from crazy demon guy
R: Just to back up a point I made last night. Bali was cut out like I was, not for talking shit but for being a Hare Krishna in a different group. For refusing to refer to Chris Butler as “Srila Prabhupada”.
Do you realize it was totally wrong for him to assume that title Srila Prabhupada? To this day nobody else has ever called themselves that out of respect to Bhaktivedanta Swami. But Chris did it within a year or two of Bhaktivedanta dying.
It is systematic on behalf of your group that you cut people off. Bali got the same exact treatment for philosophical differences.
Acharya Tibby told Bali that it is okay for him to stop chanting, but it is not okay for him to join a different Krishna group because Bali was “one of theirs”.
That is some seriously bogus shit, all on behalf of the group run by Chris Butler. This kind of behavior is not a part of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism at all, and is one of the corrupt aspects of your group.
L: I don’t know any details about Bali’s situation. But I highly doubt the validity of what you claim Acharya Tibby said above. Everyone has their own free will to as he pleases. I don’t know what his relationship is with his parents but last i heard he would still come and visit them. I wouldn’t just listen to bali’s side of the story. Have you talked to his parents and asked them? I saw bali a few times when he was doing other things with other groups and we chatted briefly. Prahlad saw him down in Aus too at one point.
L: And like i said last night, the reason we haven’t been talking to you is because we were hurt by the things you said about us. We don’t have any trust that we can have a relationship with you without you judging us. If the way we live our lives doesnt meet you approval you’ll tell the world about it and rip us publicly.
It’s not some order from above. It’s just the nature of a relationships. We’re not comfortable relating to you when we have seen the things youve said about us and our beliefs online.
As far as what is and is not Gaudiya Vaishnavism, you are hardly the authority. I will decide that for myself by what I read in scripture, what I hear in my heart, and what I hear from my spiritual master.
I would imagine any family, be they Christian, Buddhist, Muslim if they had a son or a brother that posted the kind of stuff you posted online about them and their beliefs, they would have a very strained relationship if any relationship at all.
I don’t see our situation improving anytime soon. I hope i am wrong. I feel like your online crusade, your like minded friends online are very important to you. it seems through this whole situation that has been far more important to you than your relationship with your family.
I just wanted to make it clear where I stand, how I feel.
R: Dude you guys will walk away again. I actually do not care if you stay in the group, I would totally still talk to you guys. I’m fine agreeing to disagree, talking about this stuff or not talking about it.
I would keep in touch with you if you wanted, it makes no difference to me if you follow Siddhaswarupanada. I’ll talk about my experiences but you guys are the ones cutting it off, not me.
I tried to talk to mum on the phone when I was bringing the asthma abuse out. I tried to call her and directly talk it out a year ago, but she wouldn’t return my calls.
By the way, you remember Haley’s comet in 1986, you were 4. That’s how old I was when the Asthma stuff was happening, a couple years earlier.
Some people can remember very young. Others not much, but most of us have very deep memories from those ages
“Our earliest memories”
L: See I think that’s the problem, what you call “talking about your experiences” is more than that. It’s laced with all kinds of insults and anger. It ridicules and insults your family and what they beleive in. I can’t have a relationship with you when your expressing that about me, mum and dad. Why couldn’t you just accept that what we are doing is not for you, you don’t agree with it, and get on with your life. Which seemed to be what you were doing the last years on Maui and when you first moved to San Francisco. Why the need for this online assault.
R: The doctor who gave me oxygen in the middle of the night, who was annoyed at mum for not already having an inhaler readily available for me, he’s the same guy who stitched my head up a few years later.
I remember going to his house/clinic in the middle of the night, I remember Nana and Grandad were sitting there. I remember the full details of his clinic/house.
He was the Whangamata Doctor.
L: I talked to Mum tonight about the Asthma thing. She said any decisions they made had nothing to do with Chris Butler / Siddhaswarupanada and their hesitation to give you the inhaler was that you were so young and it was a steroid and they didn’t know how good it was for you. That was a decision they made on their own – trying to do what was best for you.
R: She explicitly confronted me and pressured me into understanding I shouldn’t take the inhaler “because it is drugs. It is offensive to Krishna and Srila Prabhupada for you to take this. DO YOU WANT TO TAKE DRUGS???”
R: She confronted me on the porch upstairs in Whangamata. Dad was not present. I broke down and cried and begged her that it feels better when I take it. She just held her position until I got it.
She directly explained the two reasons against taking the inhaler were it was offensive to Krishna and Chris Butler.
All she cared about was me pleasing Chris Butler.
L: That’s absurd – it’s not even something that siddhaswarupanada teaches. nothing about not taking drugs for health reasons. Just illicit drugs.
R: I know two others born into it like myself and they both reported the same attitude about medicine from their parents in the 80’s. Impossible to get medical help and inhalers
It was the old school shit, bro.
I know he has you dummies sticking 1,000 vaccines a year in yourselves out there, just so you don’t get him sick
L: But they got you an inhaler and you used it. They didn’t want you to use it unncessarily, that was always the point.
i never once remeber inhaler srila prabhupad and krishna brought up in the same sentence
R: Butler told guys who were dying of Cancer in the 90’s in Australia to “die clean”, that they’d go to the hellish planets if they died with the AIDS medicine in them.
I know it’s all different now.
But they made me suffer Asthma attacks, severe ones for a long period before I ever knew what an inhaler was,
That’s the real abuse
L: But you seem to like to make shit up when it suits your cause. like that email you sent me that it seemed like you sent to nana grandad barry and roger and who knows who else about my trip to new zeland. Where did you come up with that pile of lies? And did you email them back and apologise and tell them it was false?
R: I would be bed ridden for days Laks, I remember it well, multiple times. That never happened once I was finally allowed to use the inhaler. But it took me suffering multiple asthma attacks that were never medicated. Nana knows, she said I was payed out for days and she rubbed Vick’s on me. It was for a long period and mum and dad were terrified to give me the inhaler 100% based on what they had been told in the group.
The drugs the doctors give is what was Forbidden. Bad bad bad. Most kids can get away with no doctors, but when you develop severe asthma but don’t get taken to a doctor, it’s a bit more traumatic.
If you truly believe in your heart that they abused you i don’t know what to say. I grew up in the same house as you and it’s unfathomable to me that mum and dad would abuse either of us
R: Um, (our cousin, name withheld) said you showed up in Whangamata. That’s all I knew about that.
L: Exactly thats all you knew. But there was a lot more in that email about why you think I went and who you thought I went with that was absolute BS
R: Laks I believe they were doing what they thought was best, unfortunately they made me suffer. It is abuse, but it’s the outcome of fanatical interpretation of teachings. They had good intentions but it hurt me, my youngest memories.
But you did go to NZ
R: Chur bro! Funny timing!
L: December 8th to the 18th?
R: Okay, our cousin told me differently. He said you were there a few days before I spoke to him around January 15th
L: See you take one little thing you hear or know and then just wrap it up in a bunch of BS and specualtion that fits your agenda
R: Alright, now I know.
L: Like this things with your asthma, you take something that happened and then speculate on why you think it happened and then all of a sudden thats the truth
R: I was hoping that you didn’t just kill a dude
L: Why would you just make shit up in that email?
(It was actually a Facebook post, but my brother was told I sent an e-mail to everyone, I never did.)
R: Like what? ( Cousin)told me you were just there a few days before. I was basing it off what he told me.
L: I don’t even know who you sent it to. i’m sure you’ll never apologise to them for sending them a complete lie
R: Eh? Just worried you were in trouble, man
(I posted a Facebook post when it seemed my brother had fled to NZ immediately after the death of Sri Shim and injury of Trey Albrecht, as I was not in contact with anyone I put it out on Facebook that I was worried about my brother being in trouble and possibly running. Laks claims he went in December 15 but I still believe my cousin who said mid January, and my grandparents remember Laks coming after Christmas and New Year, too. My brother had not been home in 8 years but was back within days of Sri Shim’s death at the actions of one of his close cult associates Sai Hansen, with the presence of a second unidentified male heard in the 911 recording.
This voice sounds very similar to son of Wai Lana Siddha Bellord a.k.a. Richard V. Bellord who is closely associated with my brother Laksmana Ranson and the boat operator Sai Hansen who is responsible for the death and injury.
L: You said I took Sid Bellord down there, that I was escorting someone who comittied a murder. That i was only allowed to go because of this reason
WTF! Why would you make that up and send it to our whole family?
when all you knew is i went to New Zealand
(So now he admits he went to NZ after the death of Sri)
R: We didn’t know who killed Sri, then I hear you showed up in NZ. Anybody could have corrected me, this is the first I heard that (cousin’s) info was wrong
L: But why send the email with all that shit that you had no idea was true?
R: Because you fuckers just killed a dude in that boat, man. That’s fucked! I can’t talk to you, you never had me in contact so I’m trying to piece shit together.
I think you’ll find that I didn’t know what was going on, that I was worried for you and I presented my info in that context.
Better look closer at the E-mail.
(Again, it was actually never an e-mail, just a FB post)
R: Plus Carroll Cox reported that the unnamed driver of the boat had disappeared to New Zealand. Then I heard you showed up in NZ.
I fully accept that you were there in December, just show a pic of your passport if you want to prove it
I was sure fucking hoping you weren’t responsible for that shit.
L: your putting this all forwward as fact
L: what to speak of accusing Sid of murder
R: Hey man, that shit coulda been intentional brah. Easy.
That’s a possible murder. It’s not out of the question. I always said it’s possible. I don’t present anything as fact that I am not sure of. If you actually look you will see this.
L: Just a blatant lie.
and you expect us to have a normal relationship with you. this is just an example. You do this with everything
R: Coulda been more of the agro behavior and vibing out that the locals say you guys have done in that boat for 15 years.
Just trying to scare those dudes, lost control. Not intended to murder but knew they were there. That is some degree of murder and well within reason given your history of aggression in the water
You meaning all you young guys in Kailua who follow Butler. The few who drive that boat and vibe out locals
You guys (the cult) killed Sri Shim. The 911 call has two adults besides Trey, sounds like it could be Siddha Bellord with Sai Hansen.
Have you heard this recording?
L: you can’t help yourself. speculating and lying. and it seems you can’t even see what you are doing
R: It took them over 10 minutes to get from flat island to the ramp. The call is 6 minutes. No boat engine is running the whole time.
L: The things you try to pass at fact that are complete specualtion is amazing.
R: None of it adds up dude. This isn’t fuckin games anymore, you guys are responsible for the death of a Hawaiian. It is 100% the fault of your group and their bad behavior.
This is not ever going to change in the eyes of the locals and the Hawaiians.
They know it is all because of Butler and all you Haoles he shipped in. They all tried to get you guys not to drive that boat like fuck heads, but you never stopped until the death.
L: look we are not gaining anything hear. I’ve stated how I feel. It’s pretty clear to me you feel the way you do and it’s not changing anytime soon
L: I dont want to sit hear and argue with you all night long
R: It’s been good talking to you. It’s actually healthy to get it out.
I’m always here, you guys are the ones who cut me off. I’m not cutting off contact.
Mate if you have any ongoing reason to stay in contact, just keep it open.
I don’t seek to change your mind. I’m happy to get this shit out between us.
I accept you and mum for who you are, believe it or not. I don’t think you guys are bad, just total victims of the pressure of this group and the mentality.
(He cut me right out again, I have had no contact outside this brief window he initiated and ended, as he was tasked to talk to me by Chris Butler, I assume.)
I got no demands of you guys whatsoever.
Don’t go a-changin’
Let the dance continue! Chris is LOVING me!
L: Your posting this stuff about us is what broke the relationship in the first place. And your solution is to it more and more.
(Or you could say the zero tolerance of the cult about criticism from its membership is what destroyed my family. They think it is my actions that ended our family, but me speaking out was crucial for my own recovery and a natural part of exiting a cult. My family being hard core Chris Butler worshipping and obeying cult members is the real reason they chose to cut me out of the family.
Bottom line I never ever cut them out or stopped communication.)
R: I refused the deal back then, and you come with the same deal 10 years later
L: Its not a deal. It’s the very basic core of a relationship. Respect, trust
(The deal was I must promise to never speak against the cult and remove all my content from the Internet before I can have anything to do with my family. This was the deal my dad communicated to me on behalf of the cult in 2006.)
R: On another note, you fuckin shred at surfing. Fuckin sick.
R: It’s conditional love
There are conditions to a relationship with you guys. Do not talk bad about our guru or our group
L: I still love you. But i love Mum too and Dad. And what kind of love would that be if i just accepted all the stuff you have said about them?
Love doesnt mean, I love you man (and then go and post all kinds of shit about the person online) Thats not love.
R: You tell me, you said you still love me
Get an opinion outside the group?
Talk to uncle Michael,
Would you ever do that? Just to ask his take on the whole thing. He’s well aware. He would understand where you guys are at, and where I’m at.
Talk to our Aunty
I suggest your paradigm is not the only possible one.
Tell him about your dilemma, that you think it is not possible to have a relationship with me if I criticize the group.
I tried to get dad to do this, but he never did.
L: it’s not ‘criticizing the group’ it’s all the stuff you say about mum and dad, and the way you talk about what we believe in. Its not necessary.
R: Every single thing about you, mum and dad that I criticize is what you have done due to your involvement in the group.
100% everything I have written is in the context of the group.
High Demand Closed Group
L: We should be free to live our lives the way we please with out you judging us and criticizing us. Again you are free to do so. And again if thats how you want live your life, best we go our seperate ways.
R: A cult of personality worship- Chris Butler.
You have worshipped a white man every day of your 34 years. Told he is the only man in direct communication with God, and that his will is the will of God, and that the highest calling in our lives is to fully serve this man
L: I’ve said my last thing above. im signing out now.
R: You are free to live your life, I’m free to speak my mind about my direct experience with the group.
Thanks Laks I do appreciate this a lot
L: ok, bye rama
R: Bye Laks.
R: I have been drawing a lot again. I didn’t draw at all since all this shit went down in 2006 but finally started again right after I got re-involved in the “cult fight” last year.
I drew two about Chris Butler, that big colorful one was the second one.
My point on that at least is that I’ve been drawing a ton and have no plans of dedicating any more to Chris Butler.
I am getting on with my own life too, this drawing and my next are nothing to do with any of this stuff and I just want to draw other stuff, I’m going to take this one and the second part down to Thrasher when I’m all done and see if they want to use them.
100% SF skate shit. I’m so stoked to be drawing a lot again.
R: If you want to be on my friends list you can, I will not post anything to you or tag you that will pop up to your friends. No antagonistic cult stuff directed at you or connected to your account.
I may mention you in context “my brother” but I am not aiming to attack you and mum.
This is 100% about Chris Butler to me, and his rules, teachings and orders effect me through you guys. This is why I will talk about my experiences with this group and talk about how you, mum and dad act and treat me due to being loyal to this group above all else.
I do not mean to say I intend to drag you guys out any more than I have. The abuse thing is big and it did really happen as I said, that confrontation was what taught me to “tough it out” and not use the inhaler unless it was getting really bad.
I lived a life of avoiding running and physical activity because it would cause Asthma so I’d choose to not run around as much so I wouldn’t have to use my inhaler.
This is all based off the idea mum put into me that the steroid drug was not pleasing to God and Guru. Quite specifically Chris Butler. The medical directions say use as needed, use when you get Asthma and it says not to use more than perhaps 4 times a day, or every six hours.
The medical directions never say “use it as little as possible” they just tell you not to use it any more than a certain amount. The attitude mum and dad had about the use of the inhaler was not the same as this medical advice, it was 100% rooted in a directive from Chris Butler that Lalita Mann from Australia and Gopal “Kowboy” Santos from the Philippines both directly experienced themselves as kids of the same age as me or older, this was all based on the teachings at the time of the early eighties, the very oldest teachings of Chris Butler after he left ISKCON. The first 5-10 years of SIF. Kowboy “Gopal” and Lalita both corroborated that it was impossible to get medical attention when they were sick as kids and Kowboy also had asthma and couldn’t get an inhaler.
Lalita talks about all this in her video here:
I don’t think mum was evil or something, I think she was under so much psychological pressure to follow these directives that she could not do anything different. She had to make me understand the severity of using the inhaler in her mind, which was that Srila Prabhupada had told people not to use any drugs.
Nowadays it is only narcotics, but in the old days it was in line with the general attitude about western medicine inside all of ISKCON.
I first realized consciously this abuse a few years ago when my girlfriend did a school project interviewing people about their experiences using pharmaceutical drugs.
She interviewed me and submitted my transcript of this event in her paper, and noted the story as seeming very significant to me. She submitted it to San Francisco State University a couple years before I talked about this abuse last year.
In the interview it clicked in my head remembering the confrontation. I just hadn’t directly thought about that context of why I didn’t use the inhaler much, and it all tied back to that confrontation, and the fact I suffered many attacks before I was even given an inhaler.
It is all old stuff that I was always conscious of, I could recall any of it, but it was so normalized and accepted by me as that young child. I never second guessed the reasons for my low use of the inhaler and the first time I really analyzed those memories after getting out of the group was during this school project that Jennifer did. I had no reason to make it up, she knew it was very real.
I will try to see if I can get some version of her school paper to show that this all came up for me some years before I got re-involved last year.
I think I can get the audio recording of the raw interview. I will show you that, it is the raw and initial recollection of those events that made me realize the full context.
I stammered as I recounted it and laughed, I had to tell the context that I was raised in this crazy group and my mum’s guru had forbid these drugs. I clearly recounted the exact same confrontation I have been describing.
So about the friend request, I understand if you don’t want it, but I’m just letting you know I won’t blow up your friends or tag you.
It’s not a promise never to mention you but you are welcome to be connected.
I’ll send a request. I won’t spam any of your friends, I promise.
R: Do you still think the same about the Asthma after everything I wrote? I can get a copy of Jennifer’s school paper. Her teacher made specific notes that my account was very emotional and compelling, and you will see a much greater context to how this all came up for me.
L: I talked to Mum again about the Asthma. She is thinking about what you said. She might try and write you something. She did say she never remembers telling you that the inhaler was offensive to Krishna and Srila Prabhupad. And I know from my memory of you using the inhaler, if that was such a strong point I would have heard her reminding you of it. Or we would have talked about it. You would have said to be it is offensive to use the inhaler and I never remember you saying anything to me as a kid. I do remember you were told not to overuse it, that you should only use it when you need it, and that it was not good for you to overuse it. And that would be discussed when you would feel asthma coming on.
Aside from that point I have been trying to put my thoughts together over the last couple days to relay to you my feelings. Sorry if it is a bit long.
A couple things I have been thinking about. You said that I should join another ‘group’ and that what I am practicing / following is not Gaudia Vaishnavism. Firstly I don’t look at my spiritual life as a group that I join or quit. Following the Gaudia Vaishnava line means finding a spiritual master who is in that line. A pure devotee of Krishna who is connected to the disciplic succession that goes back to God / Krishna himself. In order to know if a person is such a spiritual master you see if his teachings are in line with scripture, you listen to the Lord in the heart within to hear if this is His representative, and you also see if his teachings are in line with the teachings of previous Acharyas / great devotees. And then when you find such a spiritual master you apply his teachings in your life. It is not a group or a team that you join or quit.
You make it sound as though you respect Gaudia Vaishnavism which I don’t think you do, but I’ll get to that later. Let’s say that you do respect Gaudia Vaishnavism. The following verse is from the Chaitanya-Charitamrta and is a teaching of Lord Chaitanya:
“ If a devotee commits vaisnava-aparadha (offense against a vaisnava), his offense is like a mad elephant uprooting and trampling his creeper of devotion; afterwards the creeper’s leaves dry up and become lifeless.”
Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 19.156
This verse is from the Srimad Bhagavatam, a scripture respected by all Hindus and Vaishnavas:
“A person who does not promptly leave that place where blasphemy of Bhagavan (God) or His dedicated devotee, the Vaishnava, is perpetrated, becomes bereft of all his previously accumulated spiritual merit (sukriti) and meets with degradation.”
This clearly lays out how vital it is for a devotee practicing Gaudia Vaishnavism not to commit or hear offenses about God / Krishna or his devotee. So knowing that me, mum and dad accept Chirs Butler / Siddhaswarupananda as our spiritual master, a pure devotee of Krishna, you should see how the staggering amount of horrible things you have said about chris butler / Siddhaswarupananda will put a strain on or ruin our relationship.
Let’s say you were raised in a very devout Muslim family and then through your teen years you decided it wasn’t for you. You didn’t believe those teachings to be true and stopped practicing Islam. If you were respectful of your family you would do your own thing, and even though their spiritual practices might seem weird to you, it’s not a problem and you do your own thing spiritually or become an atheist but still have a nice relationship with them. If you weren’t respectful of your family and were intolerant of their spiritual practices you might go online and rip all of their spiritual practices and maybe draw some cartoons of Muhammed that make fun of him, criticize him etc.
Or the same situation in a devout Christian family. And instead of respecting their practices and beliefs, you go online and unload on their church, their spiritual practices, and draw some comics making fun of Jesus – trashing Jesus and his teachings.
How do you think your relationship with your family would be in those situations? I would imagine the relationship is going to be destroyed or severely damaged.
Does that make the family a crazy cult for ‘cutting off’ of their son? Maybe in your view it does. But in my view it makes the son intolerant and hateful, the kind of person you wouldn’t want much to do with.
Now, still pretending that you respect Gaudia Vaishnavism and now pretend that I ‘join another group’ as you put it. And now i am following a spiritual master that you think is awesome, and he meets your approval. Well I still wouldn’t want to have much of a relationship with you because in a lot of your posts you have said extremely offensive things about Krishna. Things that would offend any Hindu, especially Vaishnavas!
So you know, and I know that you don’t really respect Gaudia Vasihnavism. Which is fine. You have every right to not believe in what we believe in. As you got older you started to feel it wasn’t right, you didn’t believe it to be true. And you started to do your own thing, and mum, dad and me were totally cool with that. I mean obviously we believe in our spiritual path so we were a little sad that you had decided to do something else. We still hung out when I was at home. We’d go cruising to Hana or whatever. Mum and dad let you stay at the house as long as you wanted and then when you wanted to move to San Francisco, Dad helped you get set up over there.
But somewhere within you had some anger. Anger at the idea of serving God or serving his devotee. An intolerance for our spiritual path / religion. Devotees of Krishna might seem a little strange to ‘normal people’ or people not interested in serving God, and I get that. But you couldn’t just respect our spiritual practices and beliefs, and even though what we did seemed weird or a little ‘crazy’ to you, no big deal, we do our own thing.
So you had this anger and intolerance , and you found a little gathering of online people that were similarly angry at God and / or angry at Chris Butler / Siddhaswarupananda. Then you just unleashed ranting tirades about us, God / Krishna, our spiritual practices and our spiritual teacher.
I would have had no problem having a relationship with you if you didn’t believe in what I believe in (which we did for many years, prior to 2006). And if you wanted to debate things philisophically thats totally fine. But that’s not what you did.
I think of our whole crew that grew up in Whanga, under similar circumstances. A lot of us are at different places in our life and have been through different stages. Like Sita Wills for example, as far as I know she is just doing her own thing. She doesn’t live around other devotees. But she’s not angry at her parents. Maybe she believes in what she was taught growing up and maybe she doesn’t, but she is not intolerant of it. Prahlad, when he was on Maui was doing the same thing you were, partying, drinking, smoking. He wasn’t serious about his spiritual life. But he never got angry at his parents for the way they raised him. Nanda for a long time was just doing his own thing, but again, no hate or intolerance for his parents and how they lived their lives.
And it’s not like your life was that bad. You admitted the other night it was pretty cool. Mum and Dad weren’t even particularly strict with having us follow their spiritual practices. Far less strict than many Christian or Muslim families. They weren’t fanatical. They did not make us chant a certain number of rounds. We played video games, went to the movies, went on snowboard trips and all that jazz. I remember us having a happy childhood. You make it sound like Chris Butler / Siddhaswarupanada was micro managing our upbringing when that couldn’t be further from the truth.
You claim that Siddhaswarupananda is not in the Gaudiya Vaishnava line. Show me where his teachings are not in line with Gaudiya Vaisnava scripture. Show me that he his not teaching Bhakti Yoga, how a person can develop a relationship with God, in line with Lord Chaitanya.
And aside from the spiritual / philisophical reasons what you have done has damaged our relationship. To show how what you have done affects me and Mum just on a personal level. Have you tried googling mine or mum’s name recently? Thanks for that. I personally don’t mind too much what people might think about me when they google my name. I like to think if they meet me they will know what kind of a person I am. But I know my wife doesn’t like it – anyone you meet that decides to look up your name gets pages and pages of that garbage. Pathetic, brainwashed, puppets, goons, biggest scumbags on the face of the earth etc. etc.
Anyway, that’s my attempt to express to you a little deeper how I feel. Again, at this point I don’t really expect you to stop doing what you’re doing. But I hope you will understand how what you are doing and what you have done affects us and our relationship with you.
L: That’s awesome that you are drawing again. You’ve always been super good at it, with a very unique style. Have you ever checked these guys out http://shirt.woot.com/ some of my friends who are good artists make some good money submitting shirts here (and maybe some other similar sites) Not sure exactly how it works, but if people vote your shirt number 1 it gets printed and you get a cut. I think you could do quite well with that.
I am working on a response to your letter, thank you and I appreciate it a lot. It’s not too long, no worries about that.
I wrote this post today addressed to you and your friends. No hate here, man, just sharing my spiritual philosophy so you guys know.
I will respond to what you wrote soon.
R: Cool Laks, I fully hear you, man. I will respond soon enough. Maybe a few point by points.
First off, the asthma medication being bad is directly inline with the Gaudiya Vaishnava “four regulative principles”
“3. No use of intoxicants. We know many arguments against the use of intoxicants. It is not a very difficult thing to understand because anyone with a sane mind will accept that taking intoxicants is physically, mentally and spiritually detrimental. It destroys the principle of austerity because the reason people take to drugs is that they want to avoid their suffering in the material world- they do not want to face that austerity. Drugs, alcohol, and tobacco, as well as any drink or food containing caffeine, cloud the mind, over-stimulate the senses, and make it impossible to follow the principles of bhakti-yoga.”
This was the early eighties, and this was exactly the same in our group and ISKCON and any other Hare Krishna group that is fundamentalist in its application of this principle.
By fundamentalist, I mean
For other uses, see Fundamentalism (disambiguation).
Fundamentalism usually has a religious connotation that indicates unwavering attachment to a set of irreducible beliefs. However, fundamentalism has come to apply to a tendency among certain groups—mainly, though not exclusively, in religion—that is characterized by a markedly strict literalism as applied to certain specific scriptures, dogmas, or ideologies, and a strong sense of the importance of maintaining ingroup and outgroup distinctions, leading to an emphasis on purity and the desire to return to a previous ideal from which advocates believe members have strayed. Rejection of diversity of opinion as applied to these established “fundamentals” and their accepted interpretation within the group is often the result of this tendency.
You guys are as fundamentalist as can be, at least back then. We did not have any drugs. Drugs meant everything, not just narcotics, it also covered all pharmaceutical drugs and even caffeine. We weren’t allowed to eat chocolate or drink caffeine.
This is why we were not taken to a doctors when our parents knew that the doctor would give us pharmaceutical medication.
Mum admits that everything is true, that I was not given an inhaler for that period before my doctors visit. I did suffer multiple days of heavy asthma without an inhaler for relief. The only point of contention here is that it was her decision, that the confrontation never happened. They were hesitating before allowing me to use the inhaler because they thought it might be bad for me.
Wether or not it was Chris Butler’s teachings, this is undisputed. This is at odds with the advice and direction of a doctor who would have immediately prescribed me an inhaler at my age, 3. Mum acted contrary to this medical advice, and in fact never sought medical advice for my asthma for many months of not one year. A harrowing period in my young life where I was given no relief from severe asthma.
I know that mum and dad’s reasoning for this attitude about the inhaler drug was based on this principle. It was the old school hardcore approach. You may have never heard “the inhaler is offensive to Krishna (or Srila Prabhupada)” but you definitely knew that the inhaler was “drugs”, and by our definitions, it was against the four regulative principles for me to live on this drug.
Every aspect of our lives was pivoting on the idea of whether or not something was “offensive to Srila Prabhupada” or not.
And yes, this confrontation between me and mum absolutely happened.
I was young, 3 or 4 and this particular incident happened after a long time of already having asthma, immediately following my first ever trip to the doctor for my Asthma, which happened in the middle of the night, emergency.
The incident happened between me and mum perhaps a few days later the next time I got asthma.
The incident happened before I had ever taken Ventolin inhaler. The only treatment I had ever had for my asthma was the oxygen that the doctor gave me, as he handed mum the inhaler.
I had suffered dozens of multiple day asthma attacks at this point, I had never ever been able to relieve these attacks, every one I suffered through until it subsided, unable to breathe for days.
Then the doctors visit, and INSTANT relief from Asthma, the first time I had EVER felt instant relief. It was unbelievable. I remember it all and remember it clearly.
I clearly remember that the doctor was annoyed at my mother, as he knew that I had been suffering asthma without medication or relief. This stuff is very clear to a child, we clearly understand these dynamics especially when they are directly affecting us.
The incident with mom happened the very next time I got asthma as I had been under the impression from the doctor that I would never have to suffer the asthma attacks in the same way.
Mum had to confront me and impress upon me the significance of that asthma medication being a drug, she had to drive it into me the severity of my choice to use this drug. She explicitly told me that to use this drug was unpleasing and offensive to both Krishna and Chris Butler.
Mom did this without dad being involved, she took me outside on my own and use the opportunity to have an extremely heavy emotional interaction with me. She drove the point home that this was a greatly weighted decision and that to choose to use the medication and follow the doctor’s recommendations was a great offense to Krishna and Chris Butler. She remained cold and Stern as I begged and I cried, it was the most intense emotional experience of my life at that point. My mother was withholding affection and understanding until I agreed to follow the way she wanted me to. This was an early trauma, my mother put this on to me, a three-year-old kid, she had to make me make the decision myself.
This is very abusive and this destroys the trust that a child has in the mother. She showed me her fanatical side, she showed me that she preferred that I suffer the asthma attacks and not displease her spiritual master Chris Butler.
This absolutely happened because it was very traumatic and was burned into my earliest memories. This event left an imprint and restructured me to understand that I must please my mother’s guru and his strict, unrelenting and austere orders in order to be pleasing to my mother.
Again, I will tell you and mum that she did this to me away from everyone else. She never told anybody this happened and since I was so young she probably blocked it out as it worked, but was never acknowledged ever again.
It was a dirty secret in her mind. An ugly thing she had to do in secret to get me to go along with Chris Butler’s program, and not the direction of a doctor who told me to use that inhaler any time I needed it.
I never used it like that, I used it as little as possible and avoided exercise and rugby and sports in New Zealand, as it was better not to exercise so as not to trigger more asthma, requiring higher use of the inhaler.
This was all based on our interpretation of the four regulative principles, and Chris Butler’s 80’s era directive of no drugs. No caffeine, no pharmaceuticals.
I tried to call mum and talk to her about this one year ago before I first wrote about it, but she never called me back and never reached out.
I clearly told Kunti on the phone that I REALLY needed to talk to someone in my family about this, and I told her that I was abused as a young child.
She screamed at me and hung up the phone on me.
Mum never reached out, I tried to talk to her about this one year ago. You and her both leave me for dead, leave me no way to contact you, and then get all upset that I am spreading things that are untrue.
Well, fuck, man, until you guys talk to me, all I have is my own experience.
As far as you saying you weren’t in NZ in January, I was randomly talking to Shane who didn’t know anything about Sri Shim’s death, but he told me that you were at Nana and Grandad’s a few days before (this was mid January) this is what I based it on.
You never sent me a picture of your passport stamps, if you do i’d believe you and correct what I said.
I can respond more to your other points, it’s just taking a while
R: So why are you guys all upset about this Asthma story all of a sudden? I put it out last year.
Mum has acknowledged that I suffered a period without the inhaler, she only seems concerned about getting Chris Butler’s influence in this removed.
I know for a fact that our attitude about the inhaler, my inadequate usage of it, the period before I got it and the confrontation with mum is 100% due to Chris Butler being the Spiritual Master of our family.
We woke up and worshipped this guy every day of our lives, and we believed everything he said is 100% truth and the unquestionable word/order of God, coming through Chris Butler, who we believed to be in direct contact with God, while our role was to obey without question.
L: Here’s what I know. I was raised in the same house as you and I am only a couple years younger than you. Mum and Dad took amazing care of us. I was never mistreated or saw you being mistreated. I never once heard that doctors, medicine, or pharmaceutical drugs were bad or were somehow offensive to Krishna or Srila Prabhupad. I never heard it from mum or dad. I never heard it from you. I never heard it from Srila Prabhupad.
In fact your ridiculous claims over the last year are the first I heard of it. It has always been clear to me in whatever teachings I have heard regarding following the four regulated principles, that it is referring to illicit drugs or mind altering drugs like alochol, tobacco, marijuana etc. Of which caffeine is one, but obviously to a lesser extent. It’s not like it was the end of the world if we occasionally had caffeine.
Mum and Dad have always been into a natural lifestyle. As are millions of people in the world who are not followers of Siddhaswarupananda. This was and is her own personal attitude to health and medicine. Mum and Dad first tried to treat and prevent your asthma naturally. This did not work so they went to a doctor. Once they knew the natural treatment / prevention was not going to work they got you an inhaler and from that point on you always had it. They had concerns (which are valid to this day) that overusing a steroid inhaler could be bad for your health. So they were careful to see you did not overuse it.
Mum would be the first to admit that she is not a perfect parent and made mistakes while raising us as kids. And I know as a parent myself, that you are constantly faced with decisions when raising kids and there is no manual to tell you what is right and wrong. Mum and Dad made the choices they did with our best interest in mind. For you to sit here 30 years later and speculate on why you think they made the decisions they did and then have the audacity to accuse them of abuse is despicable.
Thats what I know from my experience and from talking to Mum. I also know that for the 10 years prior to your ‘remembering’ this incident you have been waging an extremely bigoted, hateful campaign against me, mum, dad and our spiritual beliefs. The email you sent to our family about me and why you claim I went to New Zealand is a perfect example of how you have no reservation in putting forward lies as truth to suit your agenda. Taking one thing you know and twisting and speculating on it, putting it through your lens of hate, and declaring it publicly as truth.
The only thing you knew as a fact was that I went to New Zealand. That is it. Did you ask Shane to find out for sure what dates I was there? He would have a record of when Barry texted or called him about it. Wouldn’t you want to be sure about something like this before you accuse your brother of being an accessory to murder?
Now lets list some of the things you lied about:
That someone was murdered
That I helped cover up this supposed “murder”
That Siddha Bellord was driving the boat
That Siddha Bellord left Hawaii immediately after the incident
That I am an unpaid bodyguard for Siddhaswarupananda
That I was ordered by Siddhaswarupananda to escort Siddha Bellord to new Zealand
Siddhaswarupananda doesn’t allow me to leave
The fact you would make up such crazy accusations without any proof shows me how willing you are to lie and claim things to be true that are completely false. The fact that you think I should have to show you pictures of my passport for you to take back or take down lies that you have said about me? Are you crazy? And you wonder why I have no interest in having a relationship with you?
How could you possibly know who I went to New Zealand with and why I went to New Zealand? You couldn’t. And you don’t obviously. Yet you have no problem sending these lies about me to our family and spreading them around online publicly.
It puts serious doubt in my mind about the legitimacy of things you claim Mum said to you as a child about the asthma. The fact that you never once brought this up to any of us in the 27 years before you started your bigoted, hateful campaign against us. And even when you first started posting your hateful garbage you did not recall this. It wasn’t until you had been trashing us and everything we believe in for 10 years that you ‘remembered’ these things Mum supposedly said to you. Combine this with the fact that as evidenced above you have no problem making things up, speculating and coming up with wild stories.
I am not denying that you had difficult times with asthma as a child. And that some of these experiences were painful. But for you to twist the truth of what happened to fit your own bigoted agenda is absurd and unacceptable to me. To stoop so low as to accuse your mother of abuse is disgusting. It makes me sad, watching you try and twist what was a nice childhood into something it wasn’t to suit your agenda. Putting all your memories through this lens of hate.
“We woke up and worshipped this guy every day of our lives, and we believed everything he said is 100% truth and the unquestionable word/order of God, coming through Chris Butler, who we believed to be in direct contact with God, while our role was to obey without question.”
This is telling to me. I think what this really comes down to is your hate for our spiritual beliefs. The practice of accepting a spiritual master and being taught by him the process of Bhakti Yoga. The practice of singing prayers celebrating God and his pure devotees (the spiritual master) has been around for thousands of years. It is an intregal part of Vaishnava Hinduism. You are angry toward and intolerant of our spiritual practices. And because you found a small group of ignorant, bitter, angry people online that think our religion / spiritual beliefs are a cult (even though these practices are followed by countless people, for thousands of years) you think it justifies all this negative, hateful garbage you have unloaded about us.
The fact that of all of our friends that grew up in Whanga in families similar to ours, and they all followed similar spiritual practices to us. These people are all in different places in their life, yet you are the only one with this deep seeded bitterness and anger. It’s consuming your life. All your postings and online comments are soaked in it.
R: The long period of asthma with no inhaler or medical advice definitely happened. It is the only reason I lay unable to breathe for days on end, and after I got the inhaler, this never happened again. The suffering long days of an asthma attack I did endure, it was the first days of my asthma.
Then the doctor came in, and we had the inhaler and were able to avoid the full asthma attacks playing out over days.
This is clear, wether or not you want to argue the next part of the story, this happened.
We need to be very specific about this or it will go nowhere.
This initial period was at the very least many months, if not one year or more. I remember many of these asthma attacks, for a long time. Before I had ever had an inhaler.
Let’s just stay focused on this one point. That’s all. Get this one point straight with mum.
L: In what I sent you above I tried my best to explain to you how what you are doing destroys our relationship. I can see from your last reply that you have no desire to and will make no attempt to move away from this anger you have. Just know that my not communicating with you has nothing to do with me cutting you off because we were told by someone to do so. It has everything to do with your utter hatred and intolerance for my spiritual path. Everything to do with you trashing Mum, Dad, and many of my close friends online.
Here is one more example. In some of your first posts you made online you ridiculed Devaki for how she was raising her kids. It was regarding them dressing up as gopi girls or cowherd boys. Something you saw when do when you visited their family in Australia (this was right before or after you mocked the spiritual aspects of our best friend Prahlad’s wedding). Who are you to go online and publicly criticize someone who was supposedly a friend of yours for the way they raise their kids? That is the epitome of intolerance and bigotry. What on earth makes you think that I would want you in my life, what to speak of my kids’ lives. If something I do, or the way I raise my kids isn’t to your liking, if it doesn’t meet with your approval, you will go online and trash it publicly. That is what makes it impossible for me to have a relationship with you.
If you are going to write a long ranting and raving, hate filled reply, don’t waste your time because I probably won’t read it. I hope you will one day give up your anger. I think you will find you will be much happier in life.
Wishing you the best,
R: Hey bro, if you want to sort out this thing with mum, get this point straight that I clearly outlined above.
Just start with the point that I was not given an inhaler for a certain period, an initial period between when I developed Asthma and when I first went to the doctor.
It was during this period alone that I suffered asthma attacks that lasted days.
Let’s just keep it simple, start with this and talk to mum about that alone, and tell me what she says.
L: I don’t see the point harassing mum about a detailed timeline of something that happened 30 years ago. About something that wasn’t even an issue to you for the first 33 years of your life. But now it’s a big deal because you’re trying to twist some memories from when you were 3 or 4 years old and use it in your hateful campaign against us. A hateful campaign that you have shown no desire to give up.
R: I think everything I wrote today is totally clear, and just driving at one point.
She knows clear as day that at least that part happened.
Just asking her about this one point isn’t harassment. It’s trying to clear up the issue.
L: But to what end? everything you posted above leads me to believe you have no intention of moving on from trashing us and everything we believe in online. And if that is what you want to do with your life, you can do so without me in it.
R: To the end of sorting out what really happened to me as a kid with asthma, to the end of getting this story straight.
L: why did you never talk to Mum and Dad about it at all before 2006? it’s only important to you now because you are trying to twist it into something for your online smearing of them. They did their best to treat your asthma. Initially it was naturally and then they went to a doctor. That’s all i know. If you want to figure out exact dates, you’ll have to do it on your own. If you’re set on trashing me, mum and dad and what we believe in online (which you made clear above, I am not wasting any more of my time and energy dealing with you)
R: Well, that seems to be in line with what I said, the period where I was initially treated naturally was before I ever got an inhaler
It was this first period where I suffered the most, and I know it was very hard on mum, too
But the bottom line is I wasn’t given an inhaler at all during this time, despite suffering for probably a year without one.
I suffered that year due to mum and Dad’s decision not to let me use an inhaler. We intact did not even own one and had never been to the doctor.
My natural treatments continued for many years after that point, homeopathy, fasting, acupuncture, dousing, some old man healer who talked to spirits named Bernard who lived on Waiheke Island.
This was all natural treatments after I was taken to a doctor and given an inhaler.
Is there any part of that I am wrong about?
I am trying to keep it very clear and simple. Mum needs to respond as clearly and specifically if she wants to sort this out.
Keep it focused just at least to sort out this asthma thing.
I’m not arguing at all about why any decisions were made, I just want to get clear on what happened.
L: Like I said above, it’s clear you are still hell bent on trashing us and our spiritual life online. Until that changes, I don’t really want to talk to you. If these things are so important to you, why did you never bring them up to Mum and Dad in the past? Maybe if you give up all this crap, we can talk about it in the future.
R: There was a period where I suffered intensely as a child with asthma.
Mum knows this well, and she suffered through all of it with me.
When I was growing up, as a teenager when I’d be going off course by not following along or smoking weed or something like that, dad would always confront me and say that mum cries herself to sleep at night because of how disappointed she was in me, and her sadness and pain, every time, was based in how much she suffered with me for this period as a very young child, it was brought up in the emails from mum and dad in 2006.
It was brought up by dad all the time to me, and brought up by mum to him even more frequently, when she would be crying herself to sleep.
This is specifically the period in which I had no inhaler, the initial period after I developed asthma at 3 years old, before eventually being allowed to use the inhaler.
This period was the most painful for me suffering asthma without relief from the inhaler, and also the most painful for mum as she had to watch me suffer, and tried her hardest to help me, but nothing can really help full blown asthma attacks besides an inhaler or an oxygen mask and tank that doctors have.
Mum suffered along with me, and she never forgot it, and neither did I, me, her and dad discussed it quite often.
This I know is clear and totally accurate. Please talk to mum about this, this was never forgotten by me or her or dad.
Please talk to her.
L: I have already talked to Mum about this and I told you what she said above. They first tried to treat and prevent your asthma naturally and then when this did not work they got you the inhaler. When mum tells me that they always did what they thought was best for you, i believe her. If you don’t want to believe her, that is your decision.
After everything I wrote to you above, for you to still reply with your same hateful and bitter feelings toward our spiritual master and our spiritual practices, and to talk about my kids the way that you did. It tells me you really don’t value having a relationship with me and Mum. Holding onto your anger and hatred is far more important to you. It seems to have fully consumed you. With your hate and anger you continue to cut yourself off from me and Mum, to ruin our relationship. I hope one day you will give up this anger and hatred.
R: Ok I’ll give mum a call and talk to her directly about it if you can’t be assed.
I’ll talk to Nana and Grandad about it some more, and if mum doesn’t talk to me I’ll talk to LeeAnne and Michael about it specifically because they will remember what happened.
You and mum are the ones not interested in working this out,
So far you and mum have totally acknowledged that I was made to go without an inhaler induring great pain.
This is abuse by my definition. You cannot argue that I was medically neglected and made to suffer unnecessarily during the “natural treatment” phase.
Mum neglected my severe asthma, not a single natural therapy worked whatsoever, and I suffered severely.
She told me from her own mouth that it was 100% Chris Butler’s will that I must not use the inhaler, so I know this is the reason for the long initial period of “natural treatment”
It was child abuse, she acknowledges it yet is not the least bit sorry.
I will be sure to make another video specifically about what really happened to me as a kid with asthma, and I will talk all about how you and my mum condemn me for speaking about what happened to me as a child in the Chris Butler cult.
I never said shit about your kids, you fuckin idiot.
And you don’t know anything, most the shit you think I sent around to family members were just posts to my own Facebook page.
I never said I talked shit on Devaki for dressing her kids like Gopi’s, I talked about when I stayed there, they had a chant one morning and asked me to join. I declined, and saw they made their young kids including two young girls around 5-7 years old watch a psychotic Chris Butler video lecture where he kept talking about “faggots”, using graphic language constantly and describing graphic sexual acts. Making little kids and little girls watch that shit.
I talked about that in 2006 first, and I still think it’s a fucked up thing to do to your kids. I know I was exposed to the same shit at those young ages.
I said to you that Ant lost contact with his kids after he took them to chant with his crew, the non Chris Butler followers one weekend.
Ant dressed Devaki up as a Gopi, and Prahlad the cowherd boy, and they were young kids who loved it.
The kids were not allowed to go with Ant after that, he was cut out by Jan, George and our Mum totally involved herself.
Mum stormed into Garuda, Ant’s shop screaming at him in front of customers that he was evil and trying to mislead Devaki and Prahlad.
They made Angie write a letter as a young 10 year old that she chooses Chris Butler as her spiritual master and she won’t be associating with Ant or any devotees not in the Chris Butler cult.
Ant was cut off just for sharing his version of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism with his own kids.
You are so fuckin clueless you thought that Devaki dressed her kids as Gopi’s and I had a problem with that.
I never talked shit on chanting at Prahlad’s wedding, I specifically talked shit about Chris Butler being worshipped.
I said Prahlad looked all pimp at his wedding, and that his dad would have loved it, who is also a Hare Krishna,
I then said Ant’s heart might have sunk just a little when Prahlad’s entire wedding unveiled a massive Chris Butler picture and every single person in attendance began worshipping Chris Butler’s image.
I do not take issue with the chanting in general, just the Chris Butler cult and all you guys who support him and worship him.
So I’ll be calling mum to talk to her directly.
I will be talking about what has transpired between you and me here, how you and mum condemn me for speaking about abuse I suffered, that to this day you deny there was any abuse, yet admit I was enduring severe asthma without an inhaler for a long traumatic period.
This period was long and traumatic for myself and equally so for my mother.
I will talk about being reminded of this constantly by mum and Dad my whole life, and that it was never forgotten by anyone.
But now I will be very sure to talk about it all on camera, and I’ll upload it to YouTube.
I will make an article for it, too, but it seems that the video has had a much more powerful effect, it is what caused you to reach out. The written article one year ago did not do this.
So thank Chris Butler for showing me where I’m hurting him most, showing my face on video and honestly sharing my experiences of abuse as a child raised within his destructive cult.
R: You reached out here thinking that condemning me for telling my story will effect me. You are just showing me that all you and mum give a fuck about is denying Chris Butler’s influence in our lives, you don’t even care that I really did suffer exactly as I said.
What you acknowledge mum saying “I was treated naturally at first (a period of time with no inhaler) before finally giving me access to an inhaler and a doctor”
The only point you and her are arguing is that it had nothing to do with Chris Butler.
But this means I was abused, you just disagree with the reason for me not being given an inhaler.
You dangle the carrot of having a relationship with you and mum if I stopped everything or removed all my work against Chris Butler from The Internet.
But you are offering me nothing, and this is the exact position mum and dad came to me with in 2006. I refused then, and I have lived independently of my cult member family since then.
I already expect to live the rest of my life without you guys, so you threatening not to relate to me is no threat, it’s my normal life that I have come to terms with 10 years ago.
I’m not afraid, I never cut you guys out, but you and mum have cut me out and manipulate Nana and Grandad to cut me out,
I know you or mum went on Grandad’s computer and unfriended me on Facebook and you guys seem to have blocked all my e-mails as I get delivery failure when I e-mail my own grandfather,
It’s cool, you guys keep doing your insane shit, I’ll keep reporting on it all as the actions of deluded cult members protecting Chris Butler and his cult at any cost.
You guys are just making it worse for yourselves.
As far as your kids go, I never talked shit about them, but I do hope to meet them when they are old enough to break free of the shit they were forced into as kids, and learn to google up the history of their grandparents, their uncle and the Chris Butler cult.
Time ticks on and I await your kids breaking free.
Your entire cult is falling apart. I am just scratching the surface of what really goes on in secrecy within your cult in Kailua, and now I know all about the non disclosure agreements, unpaid servants shipped in to work for Wai Lana yoga, Ninjai and Chris Butler’s personal service.
People who are totally abused and mistreated.
You guys think they won’t speak out because of Non Disclosure Agreements, but they will well before the cult falls, and when Chris Butler dies, this cult of personality will disintegrate in his absence, and before long EVERY filthy secret will be aired by the ones who suffered it, many who now see it as an abusive cult that they were victims of and deluded by.
I think that all this stuff will be really exploding right around the time your kids are young adults and they will know everything. It’s going to be on a much larger scale than the information currently available.
Chris Butler will go down in history as a completely deranged and wacky cult leader.
Another thing is you equated Chris Butler to Jesus and Mohammed above, saying that my making fun of him in my picture is the same as people trashing Jesus or Mohammed.
You equated Chris Butler to the son of God in Christianity and the Messiah of Islam.
Good going, Laksy, you are fuckin deluded as shit, bro.
You worship a Haole kook. I’m sure you will never be exposed in your kids’ minds, just bet everything on the fact that your children will be as successfully brainwashed as you.
Sorry bro, it’s a different time now, you were indoctrinated fully before the Internet existed.
The programming will not be so successful on your children. They will learn the truth about their cult and the true history of their family.
R: A little note on Siddha Bellord, and his direct involvement in the Sri Shim case.
We have the 911 recording for Sri Shim that should have only been Sai Hansen and whoever the girl on the boat was.
But a sibling of your wife, also a sibling of Siddha Bellord swears that the voice saying “Kailua Boat Ramp” in the background is Siddha Bellord, and the young girl on the phone is Tungi Bellord, Siddha’s youngest daughter.
The GPS location for this 911 call originated from dry land, on a golf course near Wai Lana/Sai Hansen/Bellord residence at 239 Kaelepulu dr.
So there is substantial evidence of Siddha Bellord’s direct involvement in the accident, and some type of cover up as the girl lied on the call about her location multiple times, and the boat took 11 minutes to get from flat island to the boat ramp. A distance covered in seconds by that boat.
The boat was so slow to arrive at the ramp that the ambulance beat them to the boat ramp.
R: If you guys don’t like people suggesting that you guys committed murder, it is on you guys not to kill people under suspicious circumstances.
You would have a point if I was saying “murder” and nobody died.
But a man did die, and it could well be murder.
Many locals are convinced, I know one guy who shook Tulsi’s hand and told her to her face he knows it was a murder.
This guy based this on having access to all information, including the 911 call recording, transcript and GPS location.
I hope Chris Butler and his royal family who you guys all work to fund and support have to leave Kailua. That would be brilliant, and the locals don’t deserve to have to live with you psychos.
At least they know all about you guys like never before, and nothing you guys can do will diminish the exposure of your cult to the locals.
L: I found the nice things you said about Prahlad’s wdding:
They have a very escapist notion of “innocence” and “children” that they project onto their idea of “baby krishna” and also their own kids.
“awwwwww, look, he said ‘krishna’, awwwww, such a nice little devotee.”
Yeah, no s**t, it is the only word the kid has ever heard.
L: that was the stuff about kids. Here is the stuff about the weding:
My friend was getting married, and they were having a big ceremony on this Hare Krsna farm. This farm is, of all the places out there, probably the most like a nerve center, they hold the most chants and events, and a lot of people stay there.
I showed up to my friend’s wedding, and it was crazy, I saw kids from New Zealand I had not seen since I was 10 or 12. EVERYBODY was there for this thing.
It proceeded, and it was the first time I was seriously in the thick of it for like almost 15 years.
I thought, this is cool, I am sure I can just appreciate this as a celebration, singing, music, old friends, all that.
I really did not like any of it, the feeling was all bad.
I could sense something really strongly.
I looked at everyone around me. They were all chanting their hearts out.
I was looking at their body language and feeling the “vibe”.
The following is all I could “see”, not literally, but I knew it was happening.
These people were giving themselves away, just opening themselves up to let the vampires feed.
I could feel it all around me, it was definately happening.
There was a presence there of things totally feeding on these people.
ALL YOU CAN EAT, SOUL BUFFET. “what? you’re just giving it away? I’m a parasytical sucubus, damn… DON’T MIND IF I DO!”
The stuff about the kids wasn’t about devakis kids, but devotee parents in general.
Here is one about Vaishnavism:
“This is what siddha liked about krsna con.
This is Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
Look at “Vaishnavism” in relation to true and origional Hinduism.
That is where it all went wrong.”
Yes, all you male followers of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, your “love” for your male MASTER and the transgendered deity Krishna coupled with all the celibacy you strive for, makes you a whole lot gayer than most.”
“”In regards to the moderater’s question, and as someone who reads here frequently, I would want to say that I personally do not agree with any of this promotion and glorification of Vaishnavism and A.C. Bhaktivedanta swami and it seems like the wrong place for it.
I see the words, authority and logic of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as extremely disgusting and destructive.
I see the parameters of Gaudiya Vaishnavism as being designed specifically to create these unhealthy cult situations.”
(Above Laks pasted dozens of very old posts I had made on the cult education forum 8-10 years ago. This always makes me laugh because it suggests that the cult has a massive file of all the stuff I have said bad about them, and I’ve had this file quoted back to me by cult members all around the world who mysteriously have quotes of mine on hand that are so old I can’t even remember them. But I do still appreciate the classic hits once and a while.)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In English the word “bigot” refers to a person whose habitual state of mind includes an obstinate, irrational, or unfair intolerance of ideas, opinions, ethnicities, or beliefs that differ from their own, and intolerance of the people who hold them.
You took everything you disagreed with from your upbringing and posted it online in a very angry derogatory way. You never saw a problem with this or showed any remorse for it. How do you expect me to trust you, to have a relationship with you, or you have a relationship with my family if anything we do that you disagree with will likely end up online. If you ever want to move past the hate and respect me and Mum as people, and respect our spiritual life, get back to me then.
You are free to have any beliefs that you want. But can you live your life without trashing our beliefs?
R: Dude, you are such a fuckin joke. There is no way in hell that you read through the past 10 years of the cult forum.
All that stuff above was compiled by cult members on Chris Butler’s internet team
You are a fuckin clown, man, a mouthpiece for a cult leader.
But fuck yeah, I fully agree with everything I wrote.
Bhaktivedanta Swami was a cult leader, he taught everyone to believe every word he said as absolute truth. That shit is dangerous and only a controlling cult leader would set up such a system.
Bhaktivedanta created the Gurukulas and thousands of kids were abused and sexually molested.
Bhaktivedanta taught parents to detach from their kids, he knew kids were being sexually abused yet did nothing.
He knew that his Dallas gurukula was going to be shut down due to the sexual abuse and other constant abuses, so he shut it down himself and opened a gurukula in India so the children could be abused without repercussion.
One American boy was sent there and was constantly sexually assaulted, saying he had men putting their feet up his asshole. This was all going on under ACB’s rule, he didn’t mind.
He taught racism, taught that black people were better off as slaves, said it in his lectures and said all the American blacks are are out of control and should be slaves.
He taught that women like to be raped, he gloated that he married an 11 year old girl in India and fucked her, showing her what sex was.
ACB recommended that the young girls in ISKCON be married off very young, he put young teenage girls with men in their 30’s and these guys were encouraged to fuck these girls, get them pregnant and dominate them.
Bhaktivedanta also preached that there should come a time when the devotees and Ksatryas should line up all the people in the world and put a gun to all their heads, asking each person if they believe in Krishna. Bhaktivedanta said that the devotees should then blow out the brains of every person who said they don’t believe in Krishna.
There is much information exposing ISKCON, Bhaktivedanta Swami and Gaudiya Vaishnavaism as a cult, I support all of this 100%.
I fully stand behind all of that to this day. Most of that stuff you pulled up you could never find on your own or show me where you found it.
A lot of it is my thoughts and process over the past 10 years and I stand behind everything I said.
Gaudiya Vaishnavaism, to me, is complete fucking bullshit. It’s the shit I was taught to believe in and it was fundamental to me to analyze the entire belief system beyond Chris Butler. It was essential for me personally to completely reject the entire system.
It’s ridiculous, man, it’s a little cult system set up by Bengali Hindus hundreds, not thousands of years ago.
It was a repackaging of Hinduism. The version we get through Bhaktivedanta is so insane, man. The Gita As It Is is a fuckin abomination. We are taught every last word is truth, yet the original Gita was less than 100 verses. The Gita was expanded and added to over the years to be about 600 verses now, not to mention the thousands of pages of purports which are just the ideas of Bhaktivedanta, yet Hare Krishnas think every last word in his version is the absolute truth and the word of God.
All the shit they added was never there originally, so was obviously never sang by Krishna to Arjuna.
It is a political book. All the stuff they added was just worship of the caste system, which was actually created by British white Brahmins, who obviously put themselves as the ruling class.
The caste system is man made archaic racist political and social control, and the Gita is an amalgamation of archaic political systems and religious rules and minutia added in hundreds or even thousands of years after the original work.
So I disavow the entire Gaudiya Vaishnava belief system, as I would every other man made inadequate dogshit religion in the world.
They are all bullshit, all man made, all completely inadequate and none come close to the truth which is a one on one direct experience between the individual and the universe.
R: I trash your beliefs because I was raised with the same ones.
I trash your beliefs because they are the reason I suffered abuse as a child, and it is the reason you and mum are so brainwashed that you would cut me off the way you have,
I trash your beliefs because they are the destructive and fanatical beliefs of a crazy cult that has effected every portion of my life from birth up until this very moment.
I trash your beliefs because there are thousands of kids being brainwashed and abused by this shit, and my work will be available to help break people out of this sick thinking and archaic subjugation at some point in the future.
I hope one day your kids benefit from the work I am doing now. Brace yourself, little brother.
L: Yes I did look through all your posts in that thread yesterday. And you know what I didn’t see before 2015? I didn’t see one mention of Mum and Dad abusing you as a kid. That is so obviously something you have concocted in the last few years.
It’s good to know your true feelings about Gaudiya Vaishnavism and religion in general. It seems to me you would have been just as angry had you been raised in a Christian family, a Muslim family or any other religious family.
The depth and scope of your anger is pretty stunning. And you say we are the fanatical ones?
Saving all the brainwashed kids? Because all our friends growing up like Prahlad, Nanda, Rangi, Jivi, Devaki, Mohini all have such horrible lives and are such horrible people right? What a joke! These people are some of the chillest, coolest people ever. And are living very happy lives.
Good luck saving all these ‘brainwashed kids’. Maybe one day they can grow up to be happy and nice people like you.
R: They will thank me one day.
Many kids who grew up under Chris Butler already have.
Shit loads fully agree with me and read my stuff, but they don’t want to upset you psychos and get cut off, so they live in silence yet fully agree with me and are happy I’m doing what I’m doing.
I’m happy I’m doing what I’m doing, and anger is a healthy response to the shit you guys did to me, all of it well before my harsh words you are all so upset over.
Mum is fucked up for abusing me as a young child, fucked up for never acknowledging and demanding that I apologize.
Fuck that. Maybe she should kick shit off with an apology, making me suffer asthma attacks with no inhaler and no option to use one for a year in the early eighties.
R: Save the kids from believing they should eat nasty toenails. It’s a humanitarian cause, and worth the fight.
Prahlad is chill and cool, but totally brainwashed and will raise his kids to be homophobic, will make them worship harsh ass Chris Butler and probably feeds them Chris Butler’s nasty ass foot bath juice.
Nobody ever said you guys weren’t nice, but you are all fucking crazy as shit.
Prahlad may be chill, but he’s a fuckin fanatic since he couldn’t even speak to me one time, despite being my best friend up until I called the cult a cult.
I told him many years ago, put that aside and talk to me. The guy never responded, he’s a cult fuck head. A completely brainwashed motherfucker.
R: And I love him and would talk to him and hang with him in a second. Like I said, I am fully capable of accepting you guys as being followers of Chris Butler, I don’t give a fuck, if you want to talk to me or hang out and not breathe a word about it to you guys, let’s do it, I’ll show you I can,
I can tell you exactly what I think if you want to know but it is you guys that cut me off.
I could keep talking to you, I could meet up and hang out. It’s not a problem to me, it’s only a problem to you guys.
You are the ones who cannot accept me for who I am.
But I’m ready to live the rest of my life without you fuckheads. I expect nothing less.
R: Ho, bu
How you stay? Gooooooood?
This is from Ian Haridas Shimkoviak:
Yeah, this was always the story we were told. That he took Sanyas from swami maharaj and then asked his disciple to give him wai lana so that he could preach to women—that she was an ideal devotee.
The fact wad that he saw money in Wai Lana. She was a yoga instructor and attractive and he knew he could exploit that to gain followers and also push his agenda.
It was not uncommon for him and wai lana to walk down the beach together toward the kirtan and be holding hands but as they got closer they would sort of stagger and distance themselves.
It was just explained that wai lana was a pure devotee and this was seemingly through osmosis as she was not a renowned preacher of Krishna consciousness or any major conduit of knowledge or information about vaishnavism. Yet, her name was vaishnava dasi.
In fact, her total lack of words and whispering and plastic smiles was all you could get form her. Little naive “namastes” and “haribols”. In fact, besides the basics of “you’re not your body” there was little in the way of philosophical depth in anything that butler or wai lana did. it was all sentiment. Even the chanting was never with any gravity or depth of feeling. It was usually almost childlike and silly.
Because it’s all we knew and were exposed to it became like a family—but the whole family was completely woven into the butler scheme. As butler moved or had some new project—so the families around moved and became involved in the projects.
Is there some goodness in all of it? Sure—I suppose the family dynamic and closeness of everyone was pleasant. But the idea that you needed to follow butler and buy into his brand of spiritually to have that was false. That is the issue wit religion and these spiritual groups. They build upon our need for closeness but at the expense of forgoing our personal desire to understand things in our own way and behave a create a sense of responsibility and moral and ethical behavior that is intrinsically based on fear. If we do not follow this thing the way they say—they yamaraj will get ya! You will take birth as a work in stool and you will suffer millions of lifetimes in the wheel of birth and death. So the guiding principle is always fear and scare tactics.
None of the philosophy is taught in a historical context—and the so-called 5000+ year old version of the scriptures they peddle is completely false. NO vedic scripture can be traced to anything more than 3-4000 years max and most of the Upanishads even earlier—2000 years or less. The simple contradiction of the gita in the fact that it dictates not being motivated by the results of ones action while at the same time promising liberation by the process of selfless action is in and of itself just a small fraction of the conundrums of the philosophy of the scriptures. Obviously liberation becomes the fundamental “reason” and very selfish motivator for performing “selfless” action. These types of unreconciled contradictions abound—not to mention stories that are so cheesy and far fetched as to make any rational mind churn with nausea. kind of like Wai Lana’s videos and butlers naive arguments and odd behavior patterns.
It’s a damn joke brother. Through and through.
I think Nitai and a few of the more thinking group of folks in the butler cult felt the cheese and saw throughout he veneer of cheapness. It’s like that Surabi video—everyone is on their silly smartphones “chanting”. It’s just a mindless chant for them. There is no real meditation going on. Their mind is just as distracted as the next dumbass staring at their phone. But they delude themselves into thinking that they are going straight back to goloka brndaban because they are rattling off some mantra. No one stops and asks: What the heck does all this mean? Who is krishna? What is this philosophy? Where did these stories originate? They just take it at face value because they were raised and scared into it.
R: I’m not as angry as you think in my normal life. You’d never know, because you all ran off too scared of my mind and my words.
That chat me and you had a couple years ago is the same me that my friends know, and that was close to Mum for 26 years until she dropped me like a hot potato in 2006.
Yeah I’m angry about particular things relating to Chris Butler and my upbringing, but putting them clearly in public releases me from having to carry it around. It also puts it back in the hands of the perpetrators. The cult. Reverses the dynamic of the victim.
I might be angry, but the rage only came well after being cut off and cut out.
You have an aversion to anger, but it’s a part of the totality, and in many circumstances the natural response.
You guys suppress your anger and detach from it. But just because you think you guys are all “happy” and chill, doesn’t mean you are more healthy, more fully activated.
I’m pretty happy myself, and it gets better as I process my anger and resolve things I’ve been living with and carrying with me.
The other guys who leave don’t think I’m crazy, they might not agree with my tactics and “radical” approach, but a lot do, too.
They just can’t pay the price of speaking out themselves.
But rest assured they love me, at least one of us has some balls and wants to tear the shit down.
Here’s another brilliant e-mail from Ian Haridas Shimkoviak on Gaudiya Vaishnavaism as a whole.
For me it’s really about breaking apart the whole illusion of the krishna cult. There is so much naivety and misinformation and people fail to want to understand mostly due to fear of offending their guru or god—never once asking the question “who is my guru and god?” So I’ve been on this page a lot as of late http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,129243
I have been with so many krishna groups and gurus that i really have a holistic picture that it’s not just isolated to the butler scene—all of these groups employ subversive tactics to try to convince people to surrender and give money, mental time and physical energy to their pseudo spiritual krishna cults. They promote so called “proofs” and people take it at face value with little to no further exploration. My Mother did this. I saw her just gobble it all up. Before you knew it we had pictures of radha krishna and rama and hanuman and narasighadev and chaitanya hanging all over the place. You surround yourself with this seeming pleasantry and never once ask: What the fuck is all this weird ass indian shit? Really? In the vast universe of the cosmos and all of time and existence—the supreme god lives in a land where he plays with cows and young girls all day for ever and ever? God appears as a pig and turtle to satisfy the demigods base desires for immortality and fighting multiheaded demons? God tells his buddy to mow down his family members and takes up 4 hours of every ones time on the battle field to talk about concepts already popular throughout india at the time—and to talk about things like food in the mode of goodness, passion, and ignorance? Repeated references to sati and sages and gods spilling their seed to create snakes and shit is the explanation for how we got various animal species? The list goes on. And then, in my case—I’ve never been to clear on why swami bhaktivedanta asked his devotees to where dhotis and shave their heads and why we wear neck beads or keeps sikhas etc—for a philosophy that prides itself on preaching that your not the body‚ it sure spent a bunch of time on that shit. For a philosophy that states that caste is not important, they sure spent a lot of energy in creating division in dress, initiation ceremonies and division of the sexes. Literally nothing made any sense. Even the saris that women wore with the tight choli revealing the breast and navel—this is clearly stated in the scriptures as not appropriate—the dharmashastras are actually not much unlike the quaran and other fundamentalist scriptures—yet to this day, young krishna girls prounce around with their tight cholis and reveal their bodies flamboyantly—everything is cherry picked and revised and re-interpreted as it fits the gurus agenda. Illustrations abound of radha krishna fucking or engaging in sexual behavior like stealing 12-14 year old girls clothing but asking of us the impossible: Don’t think of it as mundane sex—it’s offensive. If it’s not mundane—why the fuck did the god make it nothing short of mundane and even a bit more confusing when he married 16108 wives—leaving not a single descendant in modern times. Oh! Well that’s cause god took everyone back with him to the “spiritual sky”—how fucking convenient. The stories are full of these types of simplistic and convenient explanations—while completely omitting explanations for other things. Sounds like the flawed human hand and mind was well involved in it all.
Do you smell the bullshit friends?
I’m just saying—and this is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg. There is so much scandal and cover up within all these groups about things like appointing gurus, buying up properties and asking for money fro ridiculous projects that never see the light of day. I’ve seen guru’s completely disappear from the face of the earth. I’ve seen all of the groups use shameless methods of collecting money from people by telling them they run “welfare” programs for starving kids or families in need while all the money goes right to the guru and their over-the-top ego projects. It’s ridiculous. The fun never ends. Eventually they all move to some tropical climate where they surround themselves with a few core people and keep peddling their mind-garbage. And the second and third generation just grows up thinking it’s totally normal and that everyone else is unfortunate.
R: Laks! Did you puss out, man?
(Laks did indeed puss out, I haven’t heard from him since.)
R: Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Rama Das (slave name) ()
Date: April 24, 2016 01:34PM
One little detail that came up in my talk with Canada girl is that the cult taught us not to be concerned how to determine if someone is a “bonafide spiritual master” as we already have Chris Butler, just follow him, he is here now.
Canada girl reports that within the cult it is explicitly stated that you should not concern yourself with finding a new living bonafide spiritual master after Chris Butler dies, that within the cult they are already instructing people to continue to follow only Chris Butler after he dies, that they have all his lectures and teachings to continue listening to.
It struck me just how dark and lifeless that cult really is.
To the indoctrinated cult member, they believe they have the only pure devotee of God alive in the world.
They literally believe that Disciplic Succession is a clear linear descent that is a direct line from Chris Butler all the way back to Lord Chaitanya and even Krishna himself, 4,500 years previous.
So not only do they have the only living man directly in Disciplic succession, this man has decided to single handedly cut off the line of Disciplic Succession ending it with himself, the last great devotee of Krishna that the world will ever know.
This is the most lifeless paradigm. These cult members are wallowing in an energetic dead zone, just existing in the spiritual purgatory of a megalomaniac false messiah.
I do not buy into the greater Hare Krishna movement myself, but what Chris Butler is doing in the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism should be unacceptable to real Hare Krishnas.
A man who claims he is the only means to Krishna who in 40 years could not produce a single qualified devotee to succeed him and carry on the “unbroken” tradition of Disciplic Succession.
Chris Butler is a false prophet and an agent of pure evil in the context of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism.
No true bonafide spiritual master would seek to single handedly end the direct lineage of spiritual teachers that reaches back to “God himself”.
But Chris Butler is nothing more than a spiritual parasite. He wants to suck the life and spirit out of the world of his followers. He wants to leave the world a dark void in his wake, he wants them to have nothing at all unless it all comes through him.
He literally wants to be their only God and Savior, and he wants no other man or woman to ever be the source of spiritual enlightenment for any of his followers or any of their descendants.
That was all, Laks closed our communication down and that is likely the last I’ll hear from him in a long time.